The Curious Capitalist – Natasha Gambrell (Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation)

Jack Nork and Elinor Slomba from the Conscious Business Collaborative in Connecticut speak with Natasha Gambrell, a second-generation tribal councilor from the East Pequot Tribal Nation, on this special episode of The Curious Capitalist podcast.

Join us as we take a dive into what we can learn about leadership from this indigenous community.

Claire (Intro): Our purpose is to engage, educate, and inspire business leaders. At all stages in their careers to think and work more collaboratively and sustainably. Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts from.

Elinor: And we wanted to expand that conversation today and be able to bring others in far and wide from these lands here. And so Jack Nork and Natasha Gambrell are both in the studio with us today to revisit lessons in conscious leadership. And I’m gonna turn it over to Jack. Thanks.

Jack: Thanks, Eleanor. Thanks so much.

Jack: But maybe just to start, you could just give a little bit of intro about yourself and your connection to the tribe and just to sort of frame where you’re coming from.

Natasha: Hello, my name is Shadow Dancer Natasha Gambrell. I’m a member of the Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation, where I serve on our tribal government. I’ve been on our tribal government for the past nine years, so since I was 25, as soon as I was able to run, I ran. I serve on my tribal council with my brother and my mother.

Natasha: It’s one of my biggest joys that I’m able to do this with them.

Jack: And really this conversation today is gonna be doing a little bit of a deep dive into that so that the wisdom and knowledge of you and your elders can be brought to us in the business side of things. I think there’s a lot to that you can teach us. So maybe just to start, could you. Describe the principles of leadership.

Jack: Maybe focus on how your decision making and consensus and long-term thinking.

Natasha: Yeah, so we’re a 14 member council, so it’s 7, 7, 9, 9. Tribal members or council members. We have a treasurer, a comptroller, a recording secretary. Corresponding secretary, vice chair, and a chair. The way that we make decisions, or at least the decision making process goes, is whenever we wanna make a change or do any kind of motion in the tribe, there has to be a vote called.

Natasha: Everybody makes decisions and he only breaks that tie when it is a tie.

Jack: So one of the, one of the important things that, that you taught me in our last conversation was around long-term thinking, looking, I think you said something like seven generations ahead and seven generations behind. Can you dig a little bit into that for us and talk about how that’s important?

Jack: In your leadership and in your tribe.

Natasha: So we’re taught to always think about the next seven generations ahead of us. So when we sit down to make decisions, it’s not just about myself or it’s not just about how we as a council feel, we make our decisions based off of how this could hurt or help the next seven generations.

Natasha: It’s not just about us. That’s the whole thing with the tribe and even the government and the aspect of the tribe is we don’t think about ourselves. We have to think outside of ourselves, and we only think about our elders, our youth, and what we can do to support them in.

Jack: So in terms of thinking about future generations, is part of the tribal leadership, bringing in youth and developing that?

Jack: It sounds like you started at a very young age. Can you talk about, how you were, you identified as a future leader. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Natasha: Yeah, so I knew from a young age that I was always gonna be a part of the leadership. I look back at my. Book and it says The prophecy was that Natasha would be in the WNBA.

Natasha: So for me, growing up, I saw people, and I’m always gonna talk about them, and I always talk about them, but I saw people like Kathy Sebastian, who was our former chair, Marsha Flowers, who was another one of our former chair, Agnes Kuna. I remember at young ages, just listening to them speak and just being mesmerized and just wanting, mm.

Natasha: To be able to do that for the next generation. So I knew at a young age, this was my goal, this was my plan. I always wanted to help the tribe. It’s always been a lifetime goal. So that was big for me growing up. And then I was brought up in it, like my mom tells us or tells me at least growing up that you don’t always have a choice.

Natasha: Sometimes a creator puts you on a path and you have to follow it. And she made it clear to me at a young age that this was the path the creator put me on and I had to follow this path of leadership.

Jack: And so did you find that the elders when you were younger were supportive of that?

Natasha: Oh, a hundred percent.

Natasha: We weren’t able, most tribes are able to have like youth councils, but because of the situation our tribe is in with only being a state rec. And losing our federal recognition. We weren’t able to have a youth council. But the people that I grew up with, my aunts, my cousins, they encouraged it. Even so it wasn’t as formal as it is in other tribes, but it was something that was prevalent.

Natasha: We were there.

Jack: Is this so this way of leadership, is this a traditional, are you, is this. Passed down through word of mouth and like how this way of leading and thinking about leadership. Can you talk about historical perspective and how that’s continued to today?

Natasha: Yeah, so growing up we’re taught about certain people and how they.

Natasha: And that was the first kind of form of leadership that I saw. And those were stories that I was told at a young age. Like I can remember sitting around the sacred circle and having conversations about these women. So it was things that were like passed down. We also, just like any other form of government, we also have a constitution, right?

Natasha: So our constitution governs everything that we do. So that’s another written document that’s passed down that kind of lays out all of our leadership principles and all the things.

Jack: You mentioned before a matriarchal organization. Is that traditional in Eastern Pequot? It’s traditional. Can you, can you talk about that?

Natasha: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. It’s traditional around the East coast typically, I’m not really sure about the western side, but a lot of the eastern tribes have been matriarchal and a lot of that comes down to was back in the day when we were on reservations, our men were leaving the reservation to. Be able to earn money, right?

Natasha: Let’s not just say, oh, women are the only leaders. But at least in my generation, that’s what I’ve seen a majority of, right? Like now we have a male chair, but we are a matriarchal tribe.

Jack: Okay. Can you describe a little bit more what a matriarchal tribe means and how that’s shown in terms of leadership?

Natasha: Yeah. Basically, when I say that, I mean that woman had a say. It wasn’t just up, it wasn’t just the warrior sitting around making decisions, right? Women were sitting down with those warriors, collectively coming up with those decisions. There was no one voice. Or there was no several, I wanna say there was no several, that one male authority voice, there was a bunch of different voices that were coming together collaboratively to figure out solutions, whether that was for trade, whether that was for hunting, whatever it was, we were all coming together and that’s something that we still do.

Jack: Traditions

Natasha: a hundred percent. So it’s very collaborative. So for me, I’m a teacher. So when it comes down to education and developing curriculum, they give me that role, right? My mom was a social worker for years, so my mom takes care of Icor, Indian Child Welfare. So it all depends on what your specialty is.

Natasha: It’s not like we all have to sit down and say, okay, this is what this is gonna look like. It’s it. Do this job because you do it well. You go out and you do that job and then you bring back that information to us and tell us what you did. I think for us, there’s a lot of trust and a lot of that is because we are family, right?

Natasha: So I know a lot of times it’s hard to mix government or leadership with family, but at the end of the day, that’s what we are. So you have to have that layer of trust. And I feel like, especially with my tribe, we have a huge layer of trust in one another.

Jack: All businesses really can learn that an environment of trust really is really key in terms of learning, in terms of growing, in terms of having different viewpoints and feeling supported. So that, that, I’m really glad that you brought that up. That’s really a good little tidbit. Um, in terms of that. I’m wondering what other aspects of Native American leadership do you think are relevant to modern businesses?

Jack: What can you teach the modern businesses that, that we could apply in our, in the way that we’re running things?

Natasha: I feel like a lot of times outside of Native culture, there’s a lot of selfishness, right? I wanna be the big man in charge. I wanna be the one who tells people what to do with our culture.

Natasha: There’s not so much selfishness, right? It’s selflessness as opposed to being selfish. This is how I want it done. So I think that’s a big aspect of it. And also it’s not just about the business, it’s about caring for Mother Earth too, right? So if you have a business and you have that on Native land, because anywhere you go in the United States is going to be native land, you need to think about your impact, not only on.

Natasha: Mother earth, but also the indigenous people that are around you, right? Yes. Like, so I think that’s the big thing is thinking when you have a business, you need to think outside of yourself.

Jack: Right? So you’re, so what you’re saying is thinking about, I think probably also what you said earlier was thinking about seven generations ahead.

Jack: So the decisions you’re making today, how is that actually gonna impact the future? Not just thinking about when you’re talking about selfishness saying. I don’t really care about the future. I want to do this now, and however it affects the future has nothing to do with me in terms of Eastern Pequot leadership.

Jack: That’s just not the way you do it. You think about you’re gonna make a decision based on the future, and also you talked about Mother Earth. Can you talk about environmental impact and how that structures and fits into your leadership?

Natasha: Yeah, it’s just the idea that like Mother Earth takes care of us and we take care of her.

Natasha: That’s the most important thing. We don’t own this land, but we do prepare it for the next seven generations so that they may live more comfortable, so they’re not dealing with the same things that we’re dealing now globally. Whether that’s the weather changing the way things are. So it’s, I think it’s mainly in, in that idea of just caring for her, caring in every aspect that you can because she provides us with so much. So we have to be great stewards. Whether you’re indigenous or not, it is your job to steward this land and make sure that we’re taking care of her the way that she should. And I know when you think about businesses, I’m, I think about some of the waste or the runoff that comes from those businesses, right?

Natasha: Whether that’s more traffic in the area, whether that’s more people coming around and them damaging the area. So just being proactive in that aspect, making sure you’re taking care of what is given to you.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. That’s so powerful. And we all, we are going to be ancestors and we will have our kids and grandkids and relatives in the future.

Jack: And so you talk about the term called a good ancestor, right? So how can businesses incorporate the concept of being good ancestor into their leadership practices?

Natasha: I think it’s a double-edged sword, right? Like I think it’s hard to be a good ancestor after given America’s history, especially with indigenous people.

Natasha: So it is very hard to be a good ancestor. Idealistically native people would say, give us back the land. Give us back to the land that, that you occupy now, but. I think that the answer is working with those indigenous people that are around, right? Making sure that you’re honoring their ancestors, right?

Natasha: Making sure that you are doing everything in your power to respect not only the land, but respect those indigenous peoples too. Whether that means sitting down and having conversations, difficult conversations, but learning that history, learning those things so that you can work with them together.

Natasha: Because we are better together as a people than against one another.

Jack: Yeah, I, I was, I definitely agree with you on that. I was also thinking about good ancestor in terms of thinking about a steward for the earth in the future and for all people that are gonna be here in the future. And I think some of the things that we talk about with Conscious Business Collaborative is how.

Jack: How do we put value on things that aren’t necessarily tied to a stock price? And I feel like that’s where tribal leadership can teach us a lot. Because what I’m hearing you say is there’s so much more value to the relationships, to our, to the resources on the earth to the concern about our future generations and all of that in, in your way of living.

Natasha: I think that that is a big part of it as well. And just taking out the materialistic thoughts as in like indigenous people, we don’t think about the money, right? We don’t think about ownership.

Natasha: Everything that we’re doing is just for the betterment of the people or the betterment of the land. Thinking about it that way, it doesn’t necessarily have to be materialistic. This idea of I’m bettering the environment for the people. Not because it’s gonna bring me income, but because the people will be better, the next seven generations will be better off.

Natasha: So it’s that idea, I think.

Jack: So you had mentioned that you’re a teacher. Yes. And so your focus and your superpower in the tribe is being able to teach sort of, you know, your fellow tribe members in the next generation. I’m just wondering how. How can that, how can the you, what’s your thought in terms of teaching and teaching the tribe and then teaching other people are, do you have a way of reaching out to share these values?

Natasha: Yeah, I think a lot of things we do keep in house, right? So a lot of conversations that I do have with my cousins about teaching them, about the government, teaching ’em about the way that we operate, just teaching them about how to be strong women these days, that’s one thing. But I also think. When you’re looking at these things too, reaching out to tribal nations in the area, one thing I’ve noticed is, at least around here, we love to have a voice, right?

Natasha: And we love to talk because for so long as indigenous people, we’ve been left silence or voiceless, or as if we didn’t matter, or our opinions weren’t as important because they weren’t mainstream. I would always say just reaching out. I know for me, somebody reaches out, I’m always gonna respond. Yeah, give me a platform I’ll speak for days. It’s just part of who we are, right? Like outside of me being a teacher, that’s just who I am. I’m gonna talk for days. And a lot of that is because when I was 13 and 12, we were left voiceless. So now I do everything in my power to have a voice and give that to the next generation as well, I

Jack: I think a lot of the struggle is combating cultural erasure over in history and maintaining tribal identity. And so education is so important. Because there’s a lot of mistakes made in the past that we need to learn from,

Natasha: and history repeats itself, right? So if we don’t learn from those mistakes, it’s gonna continue to happen.

Natasha: My mom has a famous saying, she says, us today, you tomorrow. They can come after us today. They’ll come after you tomorrow. You gotta learn from what they’re doing.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. That’s. I gotta say, Natasha, that really does hit close to me that especially in this day and age that we’re in, I feel like we need to, we need to get that message out more and more.

Jack: It’s really important.

Natasha: Yeah. ’cause you don’t realize until you’re the one being persecuted. That’s something that I learned over time too. A lot of people don’t know until it’s them. And the way that the world is turning and the way that the world has been, at least the last couple of months, it seems like everybody’s gone.

Natasha: The chopping block, anybody can be next.

Jack: So that kind of brings up, I think people are gonna have different opinions on things and people are going to, there is gonna be conflict in the tribe out of the tribe in business, I. And how does Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation approach conflict resolution? And how can businesses learn from this?

Natasha: It’s even harder for us ’cause we’re all family. So think about getting yourself in a room with 10 of your cousins and trying to come up with a collective decision, how typical that would be. But for us, a lot of it is listening to your elders, right? So if we ever have a really serious dispute, we bring that to the elders and they sit down and talk about it.

Natasha: We’re all doing good work. So I think a lot of it is that we sit down with the, with our elders, they help in times like that. Also, our chief passed away not too long ago, but our chief would’ve been a great resource for us too, if there was ever a huge dispute. Go talk to him. He’s gonna give you a little bit more clarity.

Jack: It’s almost like you see there. I see things where online, where you know you’re being made fun of because you don’t know how to use the latest technology or something like that. And the thing is, could you just talk about your beliefs in elders and the importance in your tribe?

Natasha: Our two greatest resources are our elders and our youth.

Natasha: Our youth because they keep the story and the elders because they tell the stories to the youth. So those are always been our greatest resources. I can remember as a kid, it’s instilled in us, right? We listen to our elders no matter what. Even if you don’t like what they’re telling you, it’s instilled in you.

Natasha: I can remember being at powwows with my mom and maybe goofing off with my cousins and an elder, even from a different tribe, would come up and be like, Hey, cut it out. You straighten up right away. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know that elder or not. It’s that level of respect that they have. ’cause the knowledge that they have is something that you can never take away from them, regardless of how you may feel about them.

Natasha: And I feel like that’s a huge aspect in our community is our elders are highly revered, not only for their knowledge, but for the things that they’ve gone through. So that’s a big force for us. I know me growing up, I always leaned on my elders. I still, to this day, I, I have difficult decisions to make in counsel.

Natasha: I call my Uncle Wolf. He’s gonna help me out. He’s gonna say, you didn’t make the right decision, or you made the right decision, or maybe you should do it this way. He’s always gonna give me that alternative perspective. And it’s not always, I may not always agree with him, but I need to hear it. I need to hear a different side of it, and I’m only gonna hear it from my elders.

Natasha: I’m not gonna hear it from anybody else.

Jack: Yeah. So that, that’s a, that’s really taught, so that’s taught the, that honoring your elders. You talked about a talking circle. Is that a formal thing? Can you talk about. That structure of that or what, how that all happens?

Natasha: I’d say it’s not necessarily a formal thing.

Natasha: There’s usually some kind of mediator, typically an elder. So you would discuss whatever that problem may be. This is how I feel about it. This is the opposing view. The elder’s gonna take that in. The elder’s gonna explain both of those viewpoints. All right? So now how can we come to a mutual understanding?

Natasha: What do you need to feel better about this situation? What does he need to feel better about the situation? Okay, we may not always agree, but can we come to some kind of mutual understanding? Yeah. So it’s more or less informal, but it’s still the idea of having somebody outside, right? ’cause we all have difference of opinions.

Natasha: Having that, uh, blank slate. Somebody that doesn’t really have a say in the game, they’re just there to listen and to help us better interpret.

Jack: And you, it’s probably also built on a shared cultural understanding and you know that you’re kind of, you probably think of it as you’re both in it for the right reasons.

Jack: Like you have, you’re feeling passionate about something. Because, and ultimately in, in, I, I would say in the tribal world, I would guess you feel strongly about helping the tribe itself.

Natasha: Yeah.

Jack: So to even frame it in that way can be helpful.

Natasha: And I think that is the biggest part of it, is taking your emotions out of it.

Natasha: That’s extremely hard when you work with family. It’s extremely hard to take your emotions out of it. And having just that other person there helps a lot. Traditionally, what they would’ve done in situations like that would’ve been like a peacemaker. Peacemakers would’ve been different leaders of each family line.

Natasha: ’cause we’re, we come from a bunch of different family lines and they would’ve sat down with whoever the, whoever was disputing and had those conversations until there was peace made.

Jack: Yeah. I just get this strong sense of cultural heritage and it underlying everything that, that it’s just a thread that connects you all together.

Jack: And I’m wondering. If you have some advice for businesses like mine that can help to cultivate a strong organizational culture, we talked about trust early on in our conversation, right? But how can, what, what advice do you have for cultivating a strong, wrong organizational culture?

Natasha: I think it all starts with understanding what I’ve none.

Natasha: And having a certain sense of understanding for people that we are gonna have differences of opinions at times. So we all have to understand each other. The trust was a big thing too, like you had mentioned, and then I would say selflessness, right? It’s not about you. It’s about bettering whatever your business is.

Natasha: How can we better this? It’s not about my improvement. It’s not about me making billions of bucks, but it’s about how can we come together to improve things because one person can’t run everything. Or at least that’s how I’ve been taught, right? It’s all about the collective. You have to come up with these decisions collectively.

Natasha: You have to sit down collectively and be open and willing to hear other perspectives and points of view. And I feel like if we can do it with family, anybody should be able to do it. ’cause we do sit down and it is extremely difficult to disagree with. I’m on council with my mom. There’s times where I disagree with her, right?

Natasha: Like we have this difference of opinions. But at the end of the day, I know why I’m here. I’m here for the betterment of my people. So I have to put myself aside and do whatever is right for them, because that’s why the Greater put us here.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like there’s a strong sense of community and belonging.

Jack: Oh,

Natasha: yeah.

Jack: And I’m curious about. What advice you have for businesses so that we can build that, like maybe is there team building strategies or mentorship or inclusive workplace practices? Like what are things that maybe we could learn. From your leadership,

Natasha: I think about the elders, right? Is there another branch?

Natasha: And I mean, I’m familiar with business, but is there another branch like that, right? Like we say elders, but maybe that’s a company that comes in and helps with this peacemaking and helps with these conversations. You need that outside force. So whatever that may be, it’s that outsider or I don’t wanna say somebody in the collective, but it’s that outside coming in to give you more advice.

Natasha: ’cause sometimes you can’t see outside of yourself, you can’t see outside of your opinion. So I think sitting down and then also thinking the way that we structure, right? Like it’s not just one person say we are a unit, we move together. We may not always agree, but we have to be a unit. You have to be a unit to be cohesive and to be able to function.

Natasha: So it’s just, I think it, a lot of it is that collaboration, right? And making sure that you build that trust and then that collaboration comes with it.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just, I really feel like I’m really appreciative of you being able to share your wisdom with us, and I feel like there’s so much that we can learn and was, I was really excited to, to be able to spend some time with you so that, again, this can go out.

Jack: Far and wide and can live on for other people to learn from and I felt a little selfish being in a room with you and having exclusive time with you and I wanted other people to be able to share that. Is, with that in mind, is there, is there anything else that you’d wanna share with businesses who are interested in doing the right thing in interest?

Jack: Like maybe sum up. Your leadership principles and the principles of the tribe so that it’s a little like concise in cheat sheet for us to learn from.

Natasha: I think some of it is reaching out to the indigenous people in your area, reach out, see how they do things. I’m telling you from an Eastern Pequot perspective, but a Western perspective might be different.

Natasha: But reaching out to those indigenous people and bringing them to the table. Bring them to the table. Sit down with those people, see what their greatest resources are. A tribe as are as a tribe. What can they do? Give them a voice, like I think that’s a big part of it too.

Jack: Are tribes open to that? I, I feel like I’ve built a really nice relationship with you, but I don’t actually have a lot of connection with other tribes.

Jack: Is that something, is that a thing?

Natasha: I, I think most tribes are right? Like from my own experiences, if somebody asks me to talk, I’m always talk. Right? Yeah. And I think a lot of indigenous people are, because a lot of times we’re left voiceless in these rooms and these discussions. When you’re having these discussions about business and the importance of incorporating our culture into it, how have you guys been able to function?

Natasha: Those are conversations that kind of need to be had. To teach the next generation so people don’t make the same mistakes as the past. So I really do strongly believe in like reaching out to indigenous people. The worst they’re gonna say is, I can’t help you, right? Mm-hmm. But there’s a bunch of indigenous people in this world reach out.

Jack: How do, is there a way that, that we can do that? Is there some place that we can find leaders to see leaders. These leaders. ’cause I don’t even know where to start.

Natasha: You have to see where you’re located. So it all depends. And then it breaks down to federal recognized tribes, state recognized tribes.

Jack: Do you have any advice in that? Is there a website we go on for? I can for tribes or

Natasha: I can share a website with you. It’s like a US map and it, when you put your mouse over, it shows you what tribes are in the area and then Oh, like afterwards, a lot of tribes have websites where, where you can contact me.

Natasha: Yeah, so I know we have a website, https://www.easternpequottribalnation.org/ where you can go and you can find out about our history. You can find out about our culture. Same thing with other tribes. Majority of the drive day. Well, that’s really good websites

Jack: I’m glad that you’re sharing that with our podcast audience.

Jack: So the website again is, can you say the website again?

Natasha: I have to send it to you because I’m not exactly sure the name of it. It’s like a USA one. Okay. But I can send it to you. I know. No, no,

Jack: your website.

Natasha: Oh, mine is, https://www.easternpequottribalnation.org/ I think that’s about right. That sounds about right.

Natasha: Okay. We also have a Facebook, so we’re available on Facebook too. Our Facebook is Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation. Anybody is welcome to follow it. We post about our socials, which might be a good thing. Some of those are open to the public. We also post about our powwow, which is on our reservation, which is typically open to people as well.

Jack: Oh, when is that?

Natasha: That is the fourth Sunday in July, so that changes every year. Oh,

Jack: that’s coming up.

Natasha: Yeah, but it’s the fourth Sunday in July. It starts at 12. We feed everybody. I don’t know how we do it, but we somehow make it work. Every year we dance, we celebrate, we come together to show people that we remain, we exist, and we want people to know we’re here.

Natasha: So we have this big powwow. And I can say other tribes have big powwows. Also, another one, if you’re in Connecticut in the summertime. Mash. Nantucket has a big powwow called Schon. They host it, I think it’s at the end of August, and that’s really open to the public showcases several different styles of dance.

Natasha: There’s native vendors, there’s native foods. It’s just a good overall experience.

Jack: Fantastic. I love this idea of building relationships with our neighbors and. To, to the original people who’ve been here and have so much to teach. So I love that idea of finding other tribes as well and, and getting their perspectives on things and nuances about leadership and about community building.

Jack: I think there’s a lot we can learn, so I really appreciate. This time, Natasha, it’s so good to see you again, and it was really a really fascinating discussion and. Why you were picked at a very young age to be a leader. ’cause you’re phenomenal. So thank you so much.

Natasha: I just wanna say x x x x which in my language means thank you.

Natasha: Thank you for giving me a platform. Thank you for letting me speak about my passion, which is my people and the leadership of my people. So thank you so much.

Jack: Absolutely. My pleasure. 100%. Yes.

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